yeah, i'm done having any type of conversations with soup.

getting back on track to the off-topic discussion about the fed...

i spent quite a bit of time thinking about this last night and this morning. the fed operates more as a private bank than a gov't agency. the monetary system was created based on materials of value (i.e. gold, silver, etc.). banks got their start by keeping people's gold in a safe place and giving them a piece of paper stating how much gold they had deposited. soon people started trading the pieces of paper for goods and services. (hopefully most of you knew that already). gold has always had it's value.

(the following is an example and the numbers i will be using are made up for reference. you can correct me on the values involved, but it will not affect the overall point i'm getting at)

let's say in the year 1900 that 1 ounce of gold = 1 dollar. that was what was used to created the printed money and coins people used to trade for goods and services. the gold that backed the dollar was kept in a secure location, ft. knox, in order to ensure the long term value of our currency. since the fed has taken over our monetary system they have continually divided up this gold more and more and created more paper dollars; this causes the decrease in the value of our dollar, which is why 1 ounce of gold today is worth about $885. there is the same amount of gold in the reserve, but there are a lot more dollar bills that represent it.

basically, the fed is creating money out of thin air, and it has put our economy and monetary system in the shitter. this $700B bail out is another example of them creating money and pumping it into the economy.

You do sound like a penis when you fail to read the writing... Yellow_Flash_Colorz_PDT_25 J/K

And I agree with purple that soup is coming off offensive.

Actually, the problem was it made me wonder if YOU read the writing. All you did was give sources for the facts I had already listed.



As in, they are not one of the private banks, but a government organization which regulates them.




Again, that's what I was saying. The US government (or at least the legislative and executive branches) have final say on who works at the fed, which is another check.



Again, like I said, the fed is NOT private, and doesn't make a profit.




Again, like I said, all the "profit" goes straight to the US government, not the members of the fed.

Hmm, you act surprised that I would post something supporting your perspective as if I was not or am not open minded and objective... I often post info for infos sake without my spin to let you conclude and decide for yourself.

I will say that I could interpret the larger font portions I highlighted to indicate that indeed the Federal Reserve is really made up of private banks and government merely provides oversight. Now if you want to debate how well they oversee and whether that oversight is corrupt, we can go there... Yellow_Flash_Colorz_PDT_31

And just where exactly do you think the money in the treasury goes? To pay the "private banks" the interest dept incurred from borrowing money at interest.

http://www.silverbearcafe.com/private/JFK.html

http://www.save-a-patriot.org/files/view/news5bbs.html

In December, 1913; with a barequorum present, Congress passed the 16th Amendment to the Constitution (Federal Income Tax) and also passed the unconstitutional "Federal" Reserve Act. The 16th Amendment was the vehicle to take money out of the wokring people's pockets to pay for the unearned interest that the Federal Reserve Act creates and this transfers wealth from the working taxpayer to the rich owners of the unconstitutional "Federal" Reserve who do nothing to earn the money because nothing is backing their privately owned Federal Reserve Notes.

This is how they have the unending supply of money to pay for the transfer of wealth, created by the middle income taxpayer, to the super rich.

My assertion that the Federal Reserve System is the main reason local governments are in a financial bind is true because the stock owners of the "Federal" Reserve System are raking in all the profits instead of the money going to the people.

If we would have Congress repeal the Federal Reserve Act and eliminate this unconstitutional debt interest system, there would be no national debt and over 300 billion dollars that the taxpayers pay annually on just the interest on this debt, which is unearned interest, created by the liberal finance big spenders could be used to fund a public health program for all Americans, infrastructure for bridges and road repairs, school system, local government expenses and senior citizen needs.

Whether the system is legal, illegal, Constitutional or unconstitutional you can be sure if you read Article I, Section8, Clause 5 and Article 1, Section 10, of the U.S. Constitution that Congress in Dec., 1913, abrogated their Constsitutional oath by passing the "Federal" Reserve Act without a Constitutional amendment ratified by three-fourths of the states consenting.

You may or may not agree that the Federal Reserve Board is staffed by appointments rather than by elections, but the U.S. Constitution empowers only Congress to control the value of the dollar.

This divorced monetary policy means the people lost their Constitutional right to control the money system through their elected representatives thereby giving an unelected monopoly of international bankers control of the money system instead of the citizens of the U.S. as defined by the U.S. Constitution

http://www.federalreserve.gov/monetaryp ... 93lead.pdf

The truth shall set you free....

Open up your wallet and see if you own interest free/dept free United States Notes or interest bearing Federal Reserve Notes... Not backed by anything and not worth the material they are printed on. Yellow_Flash_Colorz_PDT_23

Are you guys really writing all of this shit or are we posting links to text and copy.pasting all the text here too? This is an awful lot of writing in the politics forum.... GEEZ!

In my case it's a little bit of both, I write some text when I feel it's needed, otherwise I simple provide the link and cut and paste the relative portion for those to lazy to go to the links and find the info that may pertain to the topic.

Purple, I definitely agree that the fed has a huge amount of power. Even the proponents of the fed agree with that, because they think it's able to use that power to secure our economy.

I was just trying to point out that the conspiracy theory saying the fed is intentionally causing economic collapse in order to profit is based on incorrect understanding of how the fed works.

Also, the bailout isn't creating money; they're just moving it from our pockets to wall street's pockets.


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Durango, the reason I asked what the point was in the first place was because you posted it as if it was a rebuttal to my claims about the nature of the fed, while the content affirmed what I had said.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_11110

And, like I told purple, I'm not trying to argue either the pros/cons of the fed system, nor the fact that it has a lot of power.

However, the letter you provided is still incorrect when it says "My assertion that the Federal Reserve System is the main reason local governments are in a financial bind is true because the stock owners of the "Federal" Reserve System are raking in all the profits instead of the money going to the people."

The "owners" of the fed are, like you said, the private banks which participate in the system and are thus required to buy stock. These banks make 6% dividends on the stock they buy, which does not even cover the interest they would be making if they invested that money elsewhere.

As far as dollars go, they've been "worthless" ever since we dropped the gold standard. Now they just represent the strength of the US government and economy, and that's what people who use dollars put faith in, consciously or not. That's also why the value of the dollar has been creeping downwards.

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Also, I think it would be more conducive to interesting debate if you didn't include so much cut/paste. If I doubt the claim you're making, I'll look it up and see for myself; people who are "too lazy to click" probably aren't participating much in the discussion anyways.

We can agree to disagree and I prefer my methods.

And did you just pull an Obama? saying one thing, and doing another. You used a "Durango post" right after saying you felt my methods were not as conducive or interesting.?. Yellow_Flash_Colorz_PDT_25

Aren't all politicians guilty of this in one form or another? I'm not saying obama is entirely innocent, but let's be reasonable, most politicians usually do that. Yellow_Flash_Colorz_PDT_08

Yeah, I was just using the opportunity provided by Judi to throw another jab at Hussain Obama. They/We all do it. Yellow_Flash_Colorz_PDT_19

It's not contradictory; it's maximum effective : )

I stand by the stance that it's not very productive to paste huge amounts of text into a forum discussion, however, if that's how you like to learn then I don't mind throwing it out there alongside my usual posts.

corpse, i have yet to copy and paste text from any sites for anything i've posted in these political threads. i am just very passionate about what's going on right now, especially the stuff that is behind the scenes and out of the mainstream media.

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EDIT: i added some to my post:)

i enjoy durango's methods, but i do wish his posts were shorter. i think if you typed your own opinions and pasted small amounts of text along with the links to support is (so we know it's not random bs) it would be perfect. i tell my gf all the time about how you're always searching news and posting links and how much it makes my life easier :)

I appreciate the copy paste since these forums are easier on the eyes than a shit ton of white pixels firing off at my eyes.

the bail out IS creating money because that money doesn't currently exist. just because they're pumping it into the system doesn't mean it exists, which is why they would need to tax us to get it back. will it ever get paid back? probably not, because if we could pay this back we wouldn't have a natinoal deficit in the first place. they've been creating money for decades. that's why there is inflation. the fed has complete control of our rates of inflation. so this bail out will create even more inflation, and by spring it will cost over $10 for a fricken tooth brush...

I mean, honestly, that's just wrong. Unless you're arguing that no money currently exists, because every dollar we have is worth negative amounts because of the enormous national debt.

As much as any US currency exists, the $700b that would be used in this bailout exists too. It would consist of (on average) $5000 dollars that exists in each household leaving that household and going to the financial corporations to bail them out.

The fed DOES print money, but they aren't proposing to pay for this by printing $700b new dollars.

ok wait, that is a bit contradictory. if money is worth negative, doesn't that prove that the money is being printed/created with no backing, which means it's being created out of thin air?

Well I wasn't sure what you were saying.

1) The money spent for the bailout is as "real" and pre-existing as any dollar bills you have in your wallet. In fact, the bailout will be taking an average (rough estimate: $700b / 140m taxpayers) of $5000 out of your pocket/bank account in the form of taxes, and every other taxpaying household.

2) However, no US money has "real" value. It's just paper saying that it's guaranteed to be worth ___ amount of dollars. What that amount of dollars will buy you varies with inflation and the fluctuation of other currencies. Seeing as our country's debt is about to hit 10 trillion dollars, spending a US-backed dollar is a ridiculous act if you thought about it in terms of real value. However, because it's a staple of international and national trade, people keep using it, and that gives it the value it has.

Prime the pump!