I remember the last solar flares. My internet was screwed up for weeks. Cell phone calls dropped randomly all over the place, it was big news.

Not really. Not if you understand how AIG insuranced the investments which included sub-prime mortgages and who depends on those insurance payouts, companies such as Goldman Sachs. It's hard to explain everything AIG did but suffice it to say the government should have been supervising more closely and there should have been stricter regulations and a lot more oversight than what was in place. That goes for all the investment companies not just the insurance firms. They knew what they were doing, they were shorting their own stock. If that's not criminal I don't know what is.

Instead of coming in now full steam the government should have interrupted them a lot sooner and much of this could have been avoided. Government involvement is absolutely necessary when it comes to capitalism and big businesses. Oversight needs to be in place to make sure misdealings like this do not go undetected.

Basically I agree with you. AIG did fucked up shit. We just differ in opinion on the solution. I feel government should let them fail for their 'mistakes'. You feel the government should 'baby-sit' them so they don't make those 'mistakes.'

I personally prefer government stay out of it (i.e. let them fail), because it can be a very slippery slope when we have the government 'regulating.' Let the free market do the regulating.

The big problem with corporations is that the same people who bitch about them still give them money to continue abusive practices.

Most of us are too stupid or lazy to care and we willingly sit by and let this shit happen though.

A giant corporation is no match at all for a consumer base that won't keep them supplied with money.

People not buying American cars is not some magical bullshit that exists without explanation. It's not unpatriotic. It's consumers telling American companies how much they suck.

Any one want to guess the biggest reason why?

Government regulations.

If the government stepped aside whole heartedly do you honestly think that big business will regulate itself honestly? Even with the government regulations in place they find ways around them and exploit loopholes. Are those loopholes placed there conveniently? I don't know. If we let big businesses regulate themselves we as a society would be totally screwed. Monopolies would dominate the markets, pump and dump schemes would be everywhere, insider trading would be unstoppable.

Your crazy if you think that is a solution. It's only a solution if your going to be an investor so you can join the in-crowd and take everyone elses money.

The government needs to regulate the size of businesses even further now. Letting a company like AIG hold so many contracts like they have done is very irresponsible.

As much as I love short-selling it should probably be heavily regulated from now on due to investor abuse.

I didn't say big business will regulate itself. The free-market will regulate big business. AIG would be dead right now for their irresponsibility if the free-market ran supreme. All these hot-shot bankers would be out of a job and everyone else who tried to make money off of a housing bubble would be screwed if the free-market ran supreme. Anyone who tries to make money through 'loop-holes' would eventually end up crashing back down to earth if the free-market ran supreme.

The problem really stems from the Federal Reserve which allows these banks and other huge corporations 'leverage' themselves to unimaginable proportions as money is created out of thin air. The problem is the government. The government helps these companies become "too big" through the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve is like a 4th branch of government only it has no checks and balances. Ron Paul is trying to get support for a bill to audit this "4th branch" of government and it looks like he's having a lot of success.

http://www.ronpaul.com/2009-04-01/ron-p ... -sponsors/

I'm saying if anything needs regulating, it's the government (the Federal Reserve).

I'm not sure i understand what you mean by if the "free-market ran supreme," but I agree with Vision that if the government had no hand in the market i'm pretty sure AIG or some other "too big" company would control a monopoly, and be very UNdead (in both meanings of the word in this case).

Without regulation, there are many available illegitimate methods those hot shot bankers and schemers can use to blast their businesses to the top. Government restriction severely limits these opportunities. Sadly, there are still loopholes and bubbles and when those businesses find them, they exploit them, but it is not as bad as it would be without gov't aid.

Issue between business size regulation and profit motive? Communistic?

What I mean by "free-market running supreme" is the government not bailing out failing companies and banks.

The government should enforce laws of fraud, and monopolies should be broken up as well, I agree. But that's it! No more regulation than that is needed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k92fTDR ... re=related (talks about regulation @ 4:05)

Unfortunately our government and the Federal Reserve are in bed with big banking. The Federal Reserve and big banks form a cartel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3TAh1gy ... 19&index=0

Unfortunately your solution would leave open to many loopholes for companies to exploit.

These companies set up a variety of very complex securties back by sub-prime mortgages and very few people thought it was a bad idea. Those that did either bet against it (the smart guys) or used it to their advantage and repackaged the securities and sold them off to other investors. When the sub-prime mortgage interest rates increased and people defaulted on their homes then all those securities back by the mortgages turned to crap and insurance firms like AIG had to bail everyone out.

The initial fault lays with those who allowed the sub prime mortgages to begin because they knew what they were doing and they repackaged the mortgages and sold them off and then insurance firms decided to insure these hostile securities. Finally, the killing blow was when the financial crash with these investment companies and banks occurred and the investors were shorting the stock on their own companies like wild animals eating their own. This exasperated the collapse even more and made a few companies go under which didn't have to.

The government should have had more oversight and intervened during step 1 when these sub-prime mortgages were first created not after steps 1, 2, 3, and 4 after everything collapsed.

Quite frankly no 'pure' economic system is ever going to work with humans and neither is any sort of 'pure' government until society as a whole elevates itself above the pettiness (ideologies, social class, money, detrimental habits) it drowns itself in today. Everything and everyone has to be monitored by someone else to ensure fairness and equality. Unfortunately, this leads to who monitors the monitors...

THIS THREAD IS NOW ABOUT HOW MAC AND VISION LIKE TO HAVE SERIOUS CONVERSTAION LIKE ON THE MCLAUGHLIN GROUP!

Vision, your still not getting to the root of the problem. Yes all these complicated securities and 'Credit Default Swaps' and 'Collateralize Debt Obligations' are part of the problem, but the Federal Reserve is at the root of all this mess. It created this mess. It is unregulated!

Audit the Federal Reserve!
http://www.ronpaul.com/2009-04-01/ron-p ... -sponsors/

It's an hour long, but when you get a chance, listen to this about how the federal reserve was created in secrecy and deceit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3TAh1gy ... 19&index=0

And this is only ten minutes, but it will open your eyes to the world of Peter Schiff and Ron Paul who's ideas I've been spewing here (Peter Schiff is Ron Paul's economic adviser)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I0QN-FY ... PL&index=5

yes, this thread has become a pissing match, but i do love seeing some heated conversations :)

Mac, the federal reserve IS a big bank. it is not part of the government; however, it performs many services for the government (federal reserve act). and several members of the fed are now part of the government (geithner, greenspan), which is why banks are receiving huge "bailout" packages.


this is exactly the problem, which i failed attempting to state earlier. the people who's responsibility it is to monitor these situations and protect the people are the ones who become corrupt. they take bribes for looking the other way from time to time, and they run for higher offices while taking huge "donations" from companies and individuals wanting them to push their agenda. it's humans that ruin governments, not the structure itself.

http://www.space.com/common/media/video ... torm_promo
Yellow_Flash_Colorz_PDT_02

Fusion Powered Plasma Canon FTW!!! Yellow_Flash_Colorz_PDT_11

The Federal Reserve is part of the government for all intents and purpose. It creates money out of thin air for our government and for big banks. Unfortunately, it has no oversight.
http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcour ... y-creation (only 7 minutes long)

I recommend watching the whole thing starting from chapter 1 if you have the time. Very eye opening.

yes i'm aware they create money, but they are not a government entity. they are a private bank (or group of banks, whichever way you'd prefer to think of it) that backs our government's spending.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Act

now we are at the point where the fed IS our government, because they own the government and country, but people don't know it or aren't willing to believe it.

But with what? Thin air. The point I'm making is that the Federal Reserve is at the root of our problems. It is quasi-private at best.

then we agree that the fed is bullshit :)

Well your right, it's not part of the government. If it's going to exist at all, It needs to be audited by the government. It currently has no regulation!

Nag your congressmen to support the bill to audit the Federal Reserve! http://www.ronpaul.com/2009-04-01/ron-p ... -sponsors/

The Economics of Money, Banking, and Financial Markets (Alternate Edition). Boston: Addison Wesley. pp. 386. ISBN 0-321-42177-9.

Please read this book before making unfounded claims about the nature of the Federal Reserve.

In a nutshell, the Fed (herein referred to as T-Fed because I want to imagine it as a parody of T-Pain) is a Board of Governors who serve only be appointment by the President of the United States of America. There is also a Federal Open Market Committee at this level which oversees the open market.

Underneath this, there are twelve federal banks around the nation which service various districts. Each bank has a Board of Directors who report to the Board of Governors.

All banks in the United States are required to own an amount of stock at 6% dividend in one of the twelve reserve banks across the country. This stock provides no ownership and only exists for FDIC insurance requirements so in the event of the bank closing it's doors, your life isn't F*CKING ruined because There's still some of your savings invested in the district reserve.

The only thing that would be different with these government audits is that there would be a handful of Congressional members who never took an collegiate economics course would be in charge.

Yes, you read that right. Old fucks who don't know anything about what they're supposed to be doing will be in charge.

People who actually earned PH.D.'s in economics hold their positions in T-Fed for a reason.

T-Fed policy is changed as necessary to promote expansion and limit inflation. Then the wonderful, wonderful government mandated that loans must be given to the poor regardless of their ability to pay it back lest we be discriminating and you suddenly get a shit storm of people who were never taught to manage money getting giant loans to buy things they cannot afford and suddenly default on their loans.

Right now, T-Fed is having to work in reaction to this and do their best to compensate for morons. The morons are complaining now though because to fix the problem created by Dumb Masses, T-Fed must now take away their shiny objects that make them feel rich without actually being rich.

Truly honest people who have their shit together run companies for profit so they can provide for their families. When the government busts in and starts bullshitting and placing ass-backwards regulations and oversight on businesses, the ratio of profit to bullshit widens and the good people tend to leave.

This leaves a void that increases the chance that a dishonest F*CK like Kenneth Lay and Dennis Kozlowski will be put in there. Then when things go to shit, there's a knee-jerk reaction that can only be scientifically described as "retarded".

People who have no basic concept of economics, statistics, psychology and sociology start calling for outrageous regulations and the politician's ears perk up because if they support these people, they'll most assuredly stay in power longer.

Now, am I saying that corporations are beautiful, perfect creatures that would never harm a soul? No, I am not. They're actually just a document sitting in some lawyer's office that says "Here be yon corporation". Stop referring to legal entities and the buildings they reside at as if they were a living breathing thing.

Anyone working for a corporation has the potential to be another Kenneth Lay. Unfortunately, it's very hard to discern if they are or not until it happens and the best we can do is pick up the pieces, garner new knowledge from the experience, and move on.

Did you pick up on the whole theme on knowledge yet?

The biggest threat to America right now is the fact that we are consciously endorsing the ultimate form of child abuse by allowing the government to teach our kids to be stupid.

Our children are not taught how to manage money. Our children are not taught economic theory to better utilize that money management and understand what exactly goes on in the economy at any given moment. Our children are not taught critical thinking skills to prevent them from mindlessly waving the flag of an useless ideology.

We raise our children to be dipshits just like us. It's easy to do that though. Actually demanding government education reforms that will benefit our children and our country would take too much time and effort. Thus, I will instead just go buy a pack of cigarettes or a lotto ticket to help fund the education that I clearly know is sub-par and lie to myself about how much good I'm doing.

TL;DR: Commit suicide please.

now you're onto something mac! ;)